Tone Glow 171: Hans-Joachim Roedelius
An interview with the legendary German musician about being a child actor, working as a masseur, and living in the moment. His wife, Christine Martha Roedelius, also joins the conversation.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius (b. 1934) is a German composer and musician best known for co-founding the influential bands Cluster and Harmonia in the 1970s. Ever since childhood, Roedelius sought to learn as much about the world as possible. This came into fruition when, as an adult, he was working as a masseur and became acquainted with numerous artists. He was intrigued by the possibilities of what he could do in music, and consequently created the Zodiak Free Arts Lab with Conrad Schnitzler. His goal was partly to “move away from the old Nazi culture,” which saw him making experimental music in various groups, including Human Being.
With Schnitzler and Dieter Moebius, Roedelius created Kluster, which later turned into Cluster with just Moebius and Roedelius. After moving to the countryside, the music he made on albums like Zuckerzeit (1974) and Sowiesoso (1976) was significantly more pastoral, partly due to the change in scenery, and partly due to his dedicated interest in the piano. He’s also released dozens of solo albums throughout the past six decades. Most recently, he released 90, a box set featuring old archival recordings from 1968-1980. Joshua Minsoo Kim spoke with Roedelius on December 13th, 2024 to discuss his childhood, creating soundtracks for dance productions, and how analogue sound is “best for the brain.” His wife, Christine Martha Roedelius, also joined the conversation.
Joshua Minsoo Kim: How are you doing today?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I’m just a little bit tired because I had to play a concert yesterday. It went well—people liked it—but we had an after party so… I’ll go for a nap after this conversation (laughter).
You were born in Berlin in 1934. What are some of the earliest memories that you have of your childhood?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I was busy even in my younger years. I was acting when I was three and I still have memories of that.
Right, I know that you starred in some UFA films. How did that happen?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: So my father was a dentist, and some of his clients were in the film industry. UFA is like the Hollywood of Germany. One time I walked into the operating room and one of his patients saw me and she said, “Can you let us have him play some roles in our films?” And my dad allowed it. It paid well, and he was able to buy a car from the income—the income was from me! (laughter).
Christine Martha Roedelius: But he didn’t like it very much because he had to play sick. He always said, “I’m not ill!” (laughter).
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: Yes, I remember I had to play a sick child. I wasn’t sick, though, so they gave me a lot of chocolate so I could become sick (laughter).
Christine Martha Roedelius: And since then, he hasn’t liked doing what others ask of him.
Were these advertisements or films?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: There was an advertisement for socks, and then I was in Verklungene Melodie (1938) and Reitet für Deutschland (1941). My father was not a Nazi, though. He was not allowed to serve in the army during the First World War, and he didn’t kill anybody. He only worked as a doctor and looked after people who were wounded on the battlefield. There was [poison] gas used during the war, and he got sick after respiring the gas. He died very young from tuberculosis. He died in 1948, when he was about 45. I was 14.
Were you close with him?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: Not really. He was always working in his dental practice, so we didn’t see each other very often. I was sad, of course, and my mother was sad. She had to take care of these two children on her own—I had a sister. It wasn’t a nice time. We were always hungry and didn’t have food.
I know you were conscripted into the Hitler Youth when you were younger, or perhaps it was the junior version [Deutsches Jungvolk]. Do you mind sharing your experiences in light of what you just said about your father not being a Nazi?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: As a child you don’t know what’s going on. You’re not aware of the background of anything. I was employed as a child actor until the war started in 1939. It was almost peaceful in Berlin, and I didn’t have a bad childhood. I was wandering around where we lived, and I was always curious—I wanted to become more aware of what was going on. So I was always busy, but when the war and the bombing started, for the first years it was horrible. Our house was met by bombs—we had to flee from the basement and go into the streets. We had to leave Berlin, and all the children were evacuated to other parts of Germany. I went to this other part of Germany near East Prussia. Then the Russians crossed the front and we had to go to a different part of Germany where we stayed until the war ended. Later, we walked by foot back to Berlin. But before this, my father took over the practice of another dentist who was killed in the war, so he had to stay and work for the Russian Army to take care of their teeth. He also had a practice in Berlin, so he went between these two places for years, and then afterwards he died.
What things do you remember feeling or seeing when the war ended?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: So every young boy had to go to the army. I was in it for about one year and then I deserted and went to the West where my relatives lived. My family wanted me back because my mother was ill, but I wasn’t 18 yet. She wrote a letter to me that said, “Nothing will happen to you if you come back. Please come, I want to see you—I’m ill.” I was promised that there would be no harm done to me, but at the border, I showed this letter from my mother and the Stasi took me and tortured me. They said they would let me go if I told them I was a spy, but I told them I wasn’t and that I just wanted to see my family. They sentenced me for five years, but they let me go when they found out I wasn’t a spy—I was there for two years and two months.
I wanted to become a doctor and study medicine, and so I started as a physiotherapist. But at this point they came again and wanted me to answer some questions. I took my suitcase and went across the border. Berlin was free. You could take the train and go away from the East. So I went by train. I eventually landed in West Berlin but they didn’t accept my examen so I had to work in different places to make a living. Somebody offered me a job at a wellness center and I worked there. I ended up being a good masseur—people liked me—so I ended up getting some private patients. I ended up leaving the wellness center because I was doing these private massages and was getting paid well. I saw about five clients a week and I also moved in between Berlin and Paris and had nice clients in Paris. People liked my massages—I became friends with the wife of the president of the National Ensemble and many other people. And so on and so on (laughter).
What inspired you to become a physiotherapist?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I had to study physiotherapy before I studied medicine, but I realized that I liked massaging people. I met many artists and created an art lab after that.
Right, the Zodiak Free Arts Lab. This was around the late ’60s, which is when you would’ve been in your 30s. Did you always have an interest in the arts or did this come after befriending these artists?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I became interested later on when I met these people. From giving massages to them, I learned how people behave. I was listening to people’s stories and it was a fundamental learning process. It was very interesting for me. I was always trying to find out what was going on in reality. My reality was my own reality—I didn’t go to a real university, so meeting people was my university. The point of Zodiak was to provide a space to find out what is possible when you have a free mind. We didn’t really know what we wanted to do; we just wanted to find out what was possible. It was always about awareness, it was always about learning—and it still is. I’m still learning, I’m still meeting different people, I’m still very curious.
I know that you started Zodiak with Conrad Schnitzler.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: We did some small artistic projects, one was called Plus/Minus, one was called Noises. We were making this space for our curiosity, just to feed it, to see what the best possible thing is that we could do.
What sort of music were you listening to at the time?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: Charles Ives, Pierre Henry, Hapshash and the Coloured Coat. Later on it was Roxy Music, and of course we became friends with Brian Eno. Later we made Kluster and Cluster. The group I was in that played at Zodiak was called Human Being, though they also played in other places, such as the Academy of Arts. When we first appeared at the Academy, people didn’t like it. They crashed the stage and destroyed our equipment. What we did was Music Actionism. It was not cozy music, it was harsh and shrill. The idea behind all this was that we wanted to change something, to move away from the old Nazi culture.
You mentioned “Music Actionism.” Does that mean you were inspired by the Viennese artists of the time, like Kurt Kren and Otto Mühl?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: We met people from the Vienna scene. Meeting Otto Mühl was a very strange experience.
Christine Martha Roedelius: It was normal that every artist would go and visit Otto Mühl, and I only went to his place once. He wanted me to sit on his lap and I said, “No, I don’t want that.” He said, “Oh, so you had a problem with your father! It’s okay, I can treat that….” And then I turned around and never saw him again. [Editor’s Note: Otto Mühl was convicted of sexual abuses against minors]. What he did was really bad. It was one of those things where people think that they can do anything they want [in the name of art] and cross boundaries without morality. This is not the sort of freedom we should be talking about.
Right, Otto was an evil person. Earlier you mentioned the idea of making music that would steer clear of the old Nazi culture. What did that look like?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: We weren’t trying to create a different political status; we just wanted to find out what was possible. At first, even for us, it wasn’t something we understood—it was an experiment. After a while, this learning process did work and we learned about new tonal languages, and then made Kluster and Cluster. People started to like it, too. This movement really started. For younger generations, I think Cluster was very important. We experimented with any sort of noisemaker—pots and pans, alarm clocks, field recordings, voices, electronics—until we found our own way. I landed on the piano. It was all a great, non-academic way to learn about music.
How’d you decide on the piano as the instrument to focus on?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: After a while, all these electric-generated sounds… I felt like the brain was not prepared for this world, for the psychoacoustic qualities of the music. The brain has to learn about it, to become comfortable with it, to agree with it. The more I went into that field of musical creation, the more I became aware that analogue sound is the best for the brain. The heart and the soul wants analogue sound, not digital sounds—that’s my opinion.
What made you realize that electronic sounds weren’t good for you?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: It was step by step. I became tired of listening to these sounds.
Christine Martha Roedelius: People need to be responsible with what they do with these tones. If it does good for you, it will be good for others.
When you started to make music as Cluster, the first two albums [1971’s Cluster and 1972’s Cluster II] felt like a transitional period from the work being done in Kluster, especially when you compare it with what came afterwards. Why was that?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: It had to do with moving from the city to the countryside. As soon as we moved to the countryside, the music totally changed—it became warm and soulful compared to the music we made in Berlin.
Why do you feel like that’s the case?
Christine Martha Roedelius: It was the influence of the area and the beauty of the nature.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: The place where we lived was beside the river. Further up there was a nuclear plant and one day it was broken so we had to leave this idyllic place; the river became poisoned.
Christine Martha Roedelius: We left in 1978 and went to Austria. One day we were looking out the window and realized that everything was so polluted. Joachim built this house and we could have lived there for 99 years, but we left because this place became an illusion because of this broken nuclear plant. Joachim was also on his way to do his solo work, and this was something he was naturally developing. It’s not like he decided that he would no longer go on with Harmonia or Cluster; he was always trying to discover new things and work on his own, and a lot of beautiful music was made.
There was also the 90 (2024) box set that just came out. These came from our archive. Tim Story came and said, “What have you got here?” Joachim said, “They’re old and not digitized.” So [Story] took them to the States, baked them in the stove—that’s how you do it with the old tapes—and it’s a long process. Christopher Chaplin, Charlie Chaplin’s son, also supported this process—he’s a good friend of ours. Those pieces were made when we were living in nature and Joachim was just doing his work without any outside influence.
What was it like to revisit these older works?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: It’s not simple music, it’s all rather complex. There are different instruments and instrumentation. It wasn’t made with any purpose—it just all happened by accident and out of the moment. So the music is very authentic—it’s not fake at all.
To go back to Cluster, I’m wondering if you could talk to me about how the processes changed with Zuckerzeit (1974) and Sowiesoso (1976) because of your move from Berlin to Forst. What did you do differently?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: It was a release from stress and strain. It was ur-nature. It was the sound of coming home and going back to the roots of everything. This was the most important thing.
Christine Martha Roedelius: He always worked with other musicians in a very democratic way. He didn’t tell them, “Play this, play that.” They came to his studio and they got together and if they liked each other, they played music out of this moment. There wasn’t a lot of thinking about the music, it was just doing and learning from each other. Christopher Chaplin and Joachim first met because they were both invited to this nice place in Vienna. And then later on, Joachim was invited by BBC to make works on the piano. They asked him to suggest an artist and he suggested Christopher Chaplin, and the album they ended up making was called King of Hearts (2012). He never really performed on stage before this, and now he’s really well known. He once said to me, “What your husband asks of me is to play without thinking, to just play in the moment.”
Christine, you took photos for some of the Cluster and solo albums. Do you mind talking about those images? Did you photograph these images with the intention that they’d be for the albums?
Christine Martha Roedelius: I was always taking pictures at the time, and sometimes I’d take extras for these releases. I studied at the Academy of Art. But when the children came, and I was also working at school, I didn’t have time anymore. Family was more important to me than my artwork. I didn’t miss it because it was my big love to be with the family and the children, and to also teach children. I only worked with old Canon cameras, so when digital cameras came around, I didn’t have time to learn how to use them and I stopped.
Did you take the cover photo for Durch Die Wüste (1978)?
Christine Martha Roedelius: Yes, that was Joachim jumping into the sea in Corsica. I was so surprised—I didn’t expect him to jump in. And the title—“Through the Desert”—was so different from the image, it was a counterpoint (laughter). I was never able to jump down because it was from so high, and I was lucky that when I took the photo, there were these stars on the water.
Were both of you big swimmers?
Christine Martha Roedelius: In Corsica, yes. It’s like our second home. We went there every summer because Joachim once worked there as a physiotherapist. He also went there when he was in Human Being.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: We had many friends in Corsica. We earned money selling oysters and fish soup on the beach.
Christine Martha Roedelius: It’s not so easy to do that nowadays (laughter).
I wanted to ask about the Highdelberg album.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: That’s some Moebius thing, not mine.
Aren’t you on the album, though?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I am not.
I see. Do you mind sharing about working with Brian Eno? Earlier it was mentioned that you had a very democratic process when working with others, but I’m curious what it was like working with him.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: It was very easy because he had this 4-track machine. Everybody could have their own track, so the only thing we had to do was mix it in the right way. The session was really nice, and that became Cluster & Eno (1977).
I also wanted to ask about the Selbstportrait albums. They have a sort of innocence even compared to some of the earlier solo records. Was this naivety something that you wanted to capture?
Christine Martha Roedelius: It was very pure. There’s this verse in the Bible that says, “If you don’t get like children….” Sometimes I call it “biological music” or “homemade music.” It was like the music was falling down from heaven (laughter).
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: It was just happening. It was important to not have any purpose.
Martha, were you often around for the recording of this music?
Christine Martha Roedelius: We let the other person do what was important for them. He let me do my work with the children at school and supported me there, and I supported him too. I was sometimes frightened that what he did couldn’t support our family. One day, Brian Eno came to me and said, “Martha, you don’t have to worry. Your husband has enough energy—you’ll be able to live on what he’s doing.” I met him again later and said, “Brian, I needed glasses to see this.” (laughter).
We were living in Baden. We would be together in the morning, and then when I and the children went to school, he would prepare the food and we’d eat when we came home. Then he’d go out to his studio, which was outside of Baden, and stay until midnight. And then we’d meet together in a little coffee shop at midnight, and then I’d go to school again the next day and he would be preparing the food, and so on.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: It was patchwork! (laughter).
Christine Martha Roedelius: He really needed a long period to concentrate on what he needed to do. I’m really proud of him, even though I was sometimes frightened.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: She was so frightened that she once said, “You have to make more money, go work as a masseur again.” And then when I went, I ended up at a swingers club (laughter).
Christine Martha Roedelius: He didn’t know! He thought it was a normal club.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: They announced in the newspaper that they needed massages, so I went and it was this swingers club. And Martha said, “I will never ask you again to go and make money.” (laughter).
Christine Martha Roedelius: He always said, “You have to believe in me—I believe in myself. You will see, we will make our way, don’t worry.” But when you’re thinking about your children, you start worrying—you never really know how much money will be coming in. Like Brian suggested, I eventually believed in him and supported him. The children supported him too. They understood that we couldn’t buy the most expensive clothes; we sometimes had to look for secondhand clothes. And now, they look back on this time and say it was so beautiful, and it was because we were always with them. We did everything for them. I did the schoolwork with them. Joachim would go on his bike with the children through the woods. They would collect mushrooms.
To clarify, did you actually give any massages at the swingers club?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: No! (laughter). I discovered it was a swingers club when I went there and refused.
Christine Martha Roedelius: He said, “You see what happens when you force me to do this work! I can only do music or massage, I cannot do both!” (laughter).
Joachim, I wanted to ask about the music you made for different dance performances. You did Borges and I with the Esther Linley Dance Company in 1992. There was also The Persistence of Memory with Roberto Castello in 2000 with Tim Story. What was it like to work in this context?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: Yes, there was also Carolyn Carlson for [L’Orso e la Luna]. I’m not really aware of what I did for them (laughter).
Christine Martha Roedelius: When they didn’t ask him to do something [specific] and just let it happen, it worked. He was even on stage once!
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I was acting as Borges, and I danced! I danced with another girl in the company for [Utopia of a Tired Man] by Esther Linley.
Christine Martha Roedelius: There’s no documentation of it though, which is sad. Joachim was friends with the dancers and it was a project that saw Esther involving the students. But it didn’t work one time and she changed everyone to professional dancers. The students said, “Please Joachim, help us. We want to stay and go on with this, but now she’s taking on professionals and we’re out.” And he said, “If you are all out, I’m out.” He no longer went on working with them. It was a very difficult decision. He had to show solidarity with the dancers, who worked with her for one year, and it was after this year that for this second [production] that she decided to change—I don’t know why.
Did you enjoy dancing in the show, Joachim?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: Yes, I didn’t have to do much (laughter). I just moved the way I moved. The choreographer gave me advice, but also included my way of dancing [in the choreography].
Did you like to dance in general when you were younger?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: Not so much.
Christine Martha Roedelius: I like dancing and I suffered because he didn’t really like to dance (laughter). I suffered a lot. I sometimes went to Ireland and I got lessons in stepdancing, but I did not have enough time for that.
I wanted to ask about Global Trotters, which saw you working with Susumu Hirasawa, Kenji Konishi, David Bickley, and Alquimia.
Christine Martha Roedelius: I love that project. The singer is just like what we have in Austria—yodeling. In former times, the fireman would go up the hill and watch the town to see if there was a fire breaking out, and they would sing to each other—it would be this special tune. One of the singer’s grandfather was singing in that way, and I thought it was great.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: It was an internet project. They wanted me to use this new digital system that I couldn’t handle, so we exchanged the music per mail. I sent pieces, and would send it to them until everyone was satisfied.
Now at 90 years old, what sort of things do you want to do musically that you haven’t done yet? Are there specific things you want to do in this last stretch of your life?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: Time is fiction. I’m not bound by time and the idea of time—I just do what I am able to do. I don’t think about what was or what could be—I am always in the moment.
Is there anything you’re working on right now?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I’m just working on my tiredness—I should go to bed (laughter).
Christine Martha Roedelius: He played five concerts in 10 days!
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I’m drained!
Christine Martha Roedelius: I do think he’s working with Tim Story on something.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: A rework of the fourth movement of Beethoven’s 9th Symphony—Ode to Joy.
Christine Martha Roedelius: They went to Bösendorfer, the big company that makes pianos, and they recorded there after the festival. They recorded this piece. Tim Story will come back next year and I think maybe in September they will go on tour in the States and play this piece, which was supported by the government. It’s the 200th anniversary of the 9th Symphony.
It’s been around a decade since Dieter Moebius has passed. I’m wondering if there’s anything you would like to share about him.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: Dieter was a dear friend. We lived together like a couple for many years before I met Martha. I was only with Moebius before that, though we lived with a respectful distance from each other. We shared a lot of the same ideas and he was a very experienced spirit—very ironic and full of humor. He was a social being, and a beautiful person in general.
Christine Martha Roedelius: What I realized most is that they had this big respect for each other. They never forced the other person to do anything to get something from them.
I end all my interviews with the same question and I wanted to ask it to you. Do you mind sharing one thing you love about yourself?
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I feel privileged. I have to thank my God because I can do what I want—nobody tells me what to do.
Christine Martha Roedelius: He’s a free man.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius: I’m a real free person. Not many are as free as I am. I have to thank my God every day on my knees that I can do what I do.
Hans-Joachim Roedelius’ new compilation, 90, can be purchased at Out of Line and Boomkat. It is also currently available on various streaming services.
Thank you for reading the 171st issue of Tone Glow. Get your glasses on.
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Well this is just an incredible interview. Thank you.
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